From Gentoo Wiki
Jump to:navigation Jump to:search
Before creating a discussion or leaving a comment, please read about using talk pages. To create a new discussion, click here. Comments on an existing discussion should be signed using ~~~~:
A comment [[User:Larry|Larry]] 13:52, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
: A reply [[User:Sally|Sally]] 13:23, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
:: Your reply ~~~~

Article changes

Talk status
This discussion is done.

Hi Buckshee .

I'll have to take time to sift through all these changes, but first impressions have me a little perplexed on a few things. For future reference, smaller, incremental edits can help people understand the logic behind changes.

The new instructions seem to break the working of /etc/profile.d, this is a crucial part of the system, I don't think this can be overlooked. Did you check out bug #545830 ? It's where I lifted much of the info for recent changes to this article, and it mentions this - several devs seem to have good insight there into how things should be done concerning Fish on Gentoo.

I can see reasons for some of the additions, but shouldn't the references to the bug, and the troubleshooting section, for example, be kept ?

Remember the wiki guidelines for larger edits.

I hope my comments don't come off as harsh, it's great seeing people help out, but I thought I should quickly ask where this was going.

-- Ris (talk) 20:37, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Maybe it's time to just start making .fish files for profile.d and see what happens regarding packaging them with tools. Everything removed just felt dated and I didn't remove any of the other env methods (IMO needlessly complex). Certainly there are large profile.d scripts that I don't know about but having made one for java-config-2 and read that bug I'm convinced this is what's needed. Fish user's are unlikely to even need to use gawk for example.
I want to resolve that bug somehow and get the readme changed, because as someone who appreciates Fish it feels like Gentoo is missing a solid definition of user shell and system shell (like with jvm) but it's one of those interesting ones so as long as we've captured all the good ideas on the wiki I think it should be closed with as partial fix with needs some work. I actually think env-update could have fixed the issue long ago and don't agree with it's support of csh but not fish (POSIX eliteism? half joking, I'm not that way but can respect the notion)
There was nothing useful in the troubleshooting section, those were the 2.x days from what I remember
In terms of direction I'm working on a profile and updated handbook, which I consider broken from a technical contribution perspective and it contains much dated info due to this (ifconfig is obsolete and the output isn't even right for example) so I've also taken an opportunity to use the wiki here, but I do believe these are reasonable changes.
Not harsh at all, and same :)
Buckshee (talk) 07:43, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Hi Buckshee .
I'm afraid I haven't got time today to go over all your points in detail, or the article, but I've got time for a few remarks.
Perhaps there could be changes to the Gentoo tree to make the situation better, but the place to start would be a bug, for example. The wiki should document things in their current state, rather than how they should be.
I think some things that were lost in the edit were the explanation of why things are how they are. As I understand it, the environment setup in Gentoo is basically written in Bash (or csh) - the config directories don't contain scripts (that would start with a shebang) but Bash files that are sourced as part of the initialization. That's just the state of things. This may be perceived as not ideal, but things are what they are, and they should be documented as such.
I hadn't even thought of /usr/share/doc/fish-3.4.1/README.gentoo.bz2 - the changes do seem to go against this somewhat, and break the link from there to the wiki. This highlights one of the things I fear: that now the main method of setting up Fish in the article goes against what the devs decided upon and wrote up. Not to say it isn't useful - but maybe not as the main method.
Some people apparently do sometimes have issues using chsh to set fish as the default shell. In fact I opened a bug about this on the Fish github that resulted in a change to their documentation, to warn of this. See the comments on that bug about issues using chsh with Fish, and the warning in the fish docs about using chsh, "Default Shell" section.
There is also ("DistroTube" video at 10min50) about issues with this on Arch - I don't think the situation is different on Gentoo, in fact I suspect it is worse. IIRC there are also some bugs on the Fish github about such issues.
It seems to me a lot of this should be discussed in bugs, rather than on the wiki.
I can still "garble" my terminal in Fish 3.4.1 (Gentoo testing) - by doing "cat /usr/bin/*" and interrupting it after a few seconds; so it seems the troubleshooting section is still valid.
-- Ris (talk) 14:43, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, I wasn't sure how to approach replies to some of the bug reports so I'll focus there for a bit, eventually I hope to have something for the likes of DT to look at so I appreciate the time and direction. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buckshee (talkcontribs) 2022-06-16T11:17:09
Reverted to before theses changes - Special:diff/1247493/1264156. The article should respect what was decided by devs and interested parties in bug #545830 and associated bugs. From that discussion, the clear conclusion was that fish should be started from .bashrc on Gentoo, and the disadvantages of not doing so are also listed on those bugs. It's been a very long time, I should have handled this earlier.
In future, please restrict edits to one section at a time where possible, make a change on one theme at a time, and provide edit summaries explaining what was done for each edit. -- Ris (talk) 14:40, 2 October 2023 (UTC)